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Kong Daddy
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 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:47 pm Post subject: Was there actually any decent racing games on the Super NES |
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Just been going through some archives of Super Play magazine for the SNES and the screenshots look great but they're all in the pathetic Mode 7 racing a toy car on top of a picture of a racing track rubbish with not a single object on the side of the road. Playing Monaco on the various F1 games was a joke....last time I looked Monaco GP was not held in 200 acres of green fields!
Isn't there a single game as fun as Lotus II, Vroom or F17 challenge on this so called super console from the 90s? 
At least SEGA had Outrun, Lotus, Virtua Racing (OK VR is stretching it now lol). Now I remember why I sold my SNES after getting bored with SSF2.
(F-zero has all the crap handling of Wipeout 1 on PSX and none of the graphical wow factor and Mario Kart is just pathetic and babyish and too slow before anyone says  ) |
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EvilCensor
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Ma.. oh, okay - guess there wasn't then
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Dan Locke
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: Was there actually any decent racing games on the Super |
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| Kong Daddy wrote: | | F-zero has all the crap handling of Wipeout 1 on PSX and none of the graphical wow factor |
F-Zero and Wipeout didn't have "crap handling"; they just had hovercraft-like steering models - which is exactly the way that they should have been. It's not the game's fault if you can't figure out how to play it. Also, Wipeout didn't have "graphical wow" anyway; it was hideous. (Wipeout 3 and Wipeout HD, on the other hand, look awesome.)
So, your definition of "decent" is "not using Mode 7"? Anything that does use it is "pathetic"? Well, the SNES has quite a few "decent" racing games, actually: the Top Gear series, a couple of computer ports, some good SuperFX games. Oh, and Mode 7 didn't have to be flat, either - look at Super Off-Road 2 or the Speed Racer game if you don't believe me. (By the way, loads of Mode 7 games have sprite-based scenery, so that's another flub on your part.)
The reason that most (about 80%) "3D" racing games on the SNES were in Mode 7 was that it was easy to program and very smooth. If the Amiga and Genesis had a similar mode, you can be sure that their racing game libraries would be comparable in that regard.
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Kong Daddy
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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Except there are only 2 types of racing game using an into the screen format that are really effective graphically speaking at giving you a rush of speed.
1. Sega style sprite scaling type things (Lotus trilogy).
2. Real 3D polygons (F1GP etc on 486/030+)
Yes the Amiga can't do that particular mode 7 effect I wholeheartedly agree (MegaCD can though), it's just that it's rubbish for any sense of involvement in a racing game. Mode 7 is like pushing a toy cars ON TOP of one of those playmats with the roads drawn on them compared to actually travelling THROUGH the scenery in something like Lotus II graphics engine.
Wipeout 1 was difficult to control and the handling needed tweaking which all but the biggest Sony arselicking mags agreed ie EDGE, and hence was quite tiring and boring in the long run. PSP Wipeout, Wipeout Fusion, Wipeout HD, and Wipeout 3 + 2097 were all awesome to play and I love playing them all and completed them all, but Wipeout 1 was just rubbish. Wipeout HD obviously benefits greatly from the SIXAXIS, if ever a perfect Wipeout controller was created then this is it. The first still looked good and ran damned fast and smooth though.
-Top Gear 2 is inferior to any Lotus game on Amiga it looks like Super HangOn running on an ST with more colours and 3000 is about as choppy as Lotus III/Batman the Movie on A500/floppy (ie not as smooth as CD32 version in Lotus Trilogy or A500 Lotus II).
-Test Drive isn't that great on any format either and the actual graphics on all versions as far as actually driving look a bit too PD for me.
-Super Chase HQ looks worse than the terrible Amiga conversion of Chase HQ or Chase HQ on the PC-Engine.
-Batman Returns batmobile section is far superior on Sega's MegaCD to SNES
-Speed Racer looks like a PD game from 17bit for 99p
-Big Run...crap enough on Amiga, worse on SNES looks like a SEGA SMS game in 256 colours.
Super Off Road Baja looks very interesting though actually cheers, am going to give that a try  Certainly that looks more like it with texture mapped hilly roads, hardly any roadside objects but the road is impressive!
I don't really like the SuperFX games to be honest, or F1GP on Amiga tbh, it's also too slow for me too unless you have an 030 50mhz or something. It's all about speed and exhilaration for me and feel of driving though the countryside/city. Obviously PS1 Ridge Racer and Saturn Sega Rally where when racing fans finally got their arcade at home experience but still there were some good PC-E/Megadrive/Amiga pseudo sprite scaling games too.
Interestingly I started this discussion at work, 5 people pulled at random in my office were shown 2 games from the SNES and Amiga (not told which system they're from btw).
SNES - Super F1 Circus 3, Human GP v2
Amiga - F17 Challenge, Lotus II
5/5 chose the Amiga games as the superior looking games. |
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EvilCensor
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Kong Daddy wrote: |
1. Sega style sprite scaling type things (Lotus trilogy).
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Sega style?
Surely Atari are responsible for that style?
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Dan Locke
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| Kong Daddy wrote: | | Yes the Amiga can't do that particular mode 7 effect I wholeheartedly agree (MegaCD can though), it's just that it's rubbish for any sense of involvement in a racing game. Mode 7 is like pushing a toy cars ON TOP of one of those playmats with the roads drawn on them compared to actually travelling THROUGH the scenery in something like Lotus II graphics engine. |
I'm assuming that the scenery in Super Mario Kart doesn't count? (And, before you say anything about that game, let me clarify that I, too, find it dull and its handling model horribly erratic. As far as I'm concerned, the series peaked with Mario Kart 64... which isn't really saying much.)
| Kong Daddy wrote: | | Wipeout 1 was difficult to control |
Speaking as someone who has beaten it numerous times, I can assure you that the only "difficult" aspect is adjusting to the handling model in the first place, which took me a week at most. It's quite stable and predictable if you know what you're doing (and it helps to pick heavier vehicles like the Auricom).
| Kong Daddy wrote: | | Wipeout HD obviously benefits greatly from the SIXAXIS, if ever a perfect Wipeout controller was created then this is it. |
I beg to differ. An Xbox/GameCube-style layout, with the positions of the crosspad and left thumbstick switched, is infinitely better for ALL racing games. It's much more natural and accurate to slide your thumb from side to side than it is to push and pull awkwardly. And Wipeout HD's handling model is far too tail-heavy and makes drifting nearly impossible. It doesn't feel like a Wipeout game at all.
| Kong Daddy wrote: | | The first still looked good and ran damned fast and smooth though. |
Smooth, yes. But good-looking? It was a launch title, and it showed badly - the draw distance and polygon count were terrible, the texture and skybox resolutions were exceedingly low, and glitches were everywhere.
| Kong Daddy wrote: | | [words] |
I hadn't actually played most of the games that I linked to; I was just going along with your definition of "decent" as "not using Mode 7".
| Kong Daddy wrote: | | Super Off Road Baja looks very interesting though actually cheers, am going to give that a try Certainly that looks more like it with texture mapped hilly roads, hardly any roadside objects but the road is impressive! |
Actually, I've played that one. Don't bother; it's garbage - the graphics are incredible, but the handling model and track design are worthless. Shame that such a great engine was wasted on such an awful game.
| Kong Daddy wrote: | Interestingly I started this discussion at work, 5 people pulled at random in my office were shown 2 games from the SNES and Amiga (not told which system they're from btw).
SNES - Super F1 Circus 3, Human GP v2
Amiga - F17 Challenge, Lotus II
5/5 chose the Amiga games as the superior looking games. |
Well, I can't say that I fault them. But Super Off-Road 2 and Dirt Race FX look better than anything that I've seen on the Amiga - or any other 16-bit machine, for that matter.
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Bebokus
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| Wrong console I guess. |
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Kong Daddy
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| EvilCensor wrote: | | Kong Daddy wrote: |
1. Sega style sprite scaling type things (Lotus trilogy).
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Sega style?
Surely Atari are responsible for that style? |
I mean Sega's System 16 style games (Outrun, Powerdrift, Afterburner etc etc). I'm pretty sure Sega were the first with 'sprite scaling' with the analogue system used in their arcade game Buck Rogers:Planet of Zoom.
@Dan
All I meant was the fact that tilting the SIXAXIS tilts the ship on PS3 Wipeouts rather than using the shoulder buttons and/or analogue sticks etc. I prefer the 360 controller to the PS3 controller generally, the Analogue button and D-Pad are not comfortable on the PSX/PS2/PS3 pads due to being placed the wrong way round for me
Wipeout 1 isn't impossible, just a bit iffy compared to Wipeout 3 really and the stuff on later Sony consoles, just my experience.
Mario Kart SNES doesn't really have the same level of sprites as your average Lotus II track or Outrun/Powerdrift etc. Mario Kart is OK for a laugh with mates but it's not really a serious racing game for me
And yes I was playing Baja and the graphics were great to look at, totally agree that it's a shame nobody tried to use them for a rally game or something.
Edit: And yes the SuperFX chip was an excellent move by Nintendo to keep the console alive longer with 3D games popping up everywhere in the early 90s. |
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Dan Locke
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Kong Daddy wrote: | | I mean Sega's System 16 style games (Outrun, Powerdrift, Afterburner etc etc). I'm pretty sure Sega were the first with 'sprite scaling' with the analogue system used in their arcade game Buck Rogers:Planet of Zoom. |
Pole Position doesn't count? (Although it was really more of a Namco game than an Atari game, but it still works, somewhat.) Of course, Sega actually did it even earlier (by a year) with Turbo in 1981, but Turbo didn't have any curves in its tracks, and I don't think that it was a System 16 game anyway...
Then you have Night Driver all the way back in 1976, which was actually developed by Atari, and had curves, but no scaling scenery.
| Kong Daddy wrote: | | All I meant was the fact that tilting the SIXAXIS tilts the ship on PS3 Wipeouts rather than using the shoulder buttons and/or analogue sticks etc. |
Ah. I could never figure out how to make that method work; I always ended up going back to the stick.
| Kong Daddy wrote: | | I prefer the 360 controller to the PS3 controller generally, the Analogue button and D-Pad are not comfortable on the PSX/PS2/PS3 pads due to being placed the wrong way round for me |
I actually like the stick placement on the PlayStation controller in most scenarios, but it really is worthless for racing games. 
| Kong Daddy wrote: | | Wipeout 1 isn't impossible, just a bit iffy compared to Wipeout 3 really and the stuff on later Sony consoles, just my experience. |
True, it isn't as good as some of the later ones (Wipeout 3 especially; that one had great course designs and atmosphere, and an incredible handling model, even if the opponents were terrible.), and it's rough around the edges, but it's hardly a bad game.
| Kong Daddy wrote: | | Mario Kart SNES doesn't really have the same level of sprites as your average Lotus II track or Outrun/Powerdrift etc. Mario Kart is OK for a laugh with mates but it's not really a serious racing game for me |
True, but that's exactly the point. It's supposed to be "OK for a laugh with mates". (Although, to be honest, I always liked Lego Racers more growing up, even if it was on the PC and I couldn't play with a friend.)
| Kong Daddy wrote: | | And yes I was playing Baja and the graphics were great to look at, totally agree that it's a shame nobody tried to use them for a rally game or something. |
Well, it's kind of a rally game...
| Kong Daddy wrote: | | Edit: And yes the SuperFX chip was an excellent move by Nintendo to keep the console alive longer with 3D games popping up everywhere in the early 90s. |
Indeed. You really need to check out Dirt Race FX, if only to see how much it pushes the chip. I did a double-take when I first saw it; I couldn't believe the level of detail. I also couldn't believe how badly it played, but that's another story...
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Last edited by Dan Locke on Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Retroplay
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Top Gear 1, 2 & 3000 perhaps.
And the my favorite: Rock 'n Roll Racing.
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Kong Daddy
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| I remember Top Gear 1 and 2 were released by Gremlin for the Amiga too, but thought it wasn't as good as Lotus II graphically on the Amiga and I think one of them was AGA only too which kinda sucked. |
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Retroplay
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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Top Gear 1 was never released on Amiga, that was a SNES exclusive.
Top Gear 2 was released in both ECS, AGA and CD³² versions.
Oh btw, there's also Kyle Petty's No Fear Racing.
A poor mans version of Daytona USA.
Dooh!! How could I forget about this one: 
Lamborghini American Challenge.
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Kong Daddy
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Retroplay wrote: | Top Gear 1 was never released on Amiga, that was a SNES exclusive.
Top Gear 2 was released in both ECS, AGA and CD³² versions.
Oh btw, there's also Kyle Petty's No Fear Racing.
A poor mans version of Daytona USA.
Dooh!! How could I forget about this one:
Lamborghini American Challenge. |
Ooooh that Kyle Petty looks like an IFF anim routine under the car sprites......gives me an idea for Daytona USA on the A500......hmmm
Is Top Gear slower on OCS? CD32 v is slower than Lotus 2 |
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Retroplay
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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Top Gear 2 is the same speed in all versions as far as I can tell.
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Dan Locke
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Retroplay wrote: | Oh btw, there's also Kyle Petty's No Fear Racing.
A poor mans version of Daytona USA. |
Oh, that one was garbage. Unspeakably ugly, and almost no gameplay worth mentioning.
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