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m1omg
Groupie in Training
Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 64
Location: Slovakia
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 Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:39 pm Post subject: Scanlines |
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It is just me, or are scanlines not emulating an old monitor/TV at all? They are supposed to emulate "old monitors and TVs". The thing is - I've never seen scalines on any actual old video device other than an old arcade Outrun monitor in Turkey. Our 1991 Mitsubishi TV doesn't have them yet our 2000s 100 Hz Tesla TV has slight scanlines. There are no scanlines on my old VGA monitor that was used with our 386 nor any computer display I've ever used. Looking here http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=28834&page=8 http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=28834&page=10
it seems some retro gamers are obsessed about them while others haven't seen them ever on their real Amigas at all. Seriously, what's the point? If the people who love scanlines complain about "blocky graphics" so much then why are they playing old games at all? To me scanlines disrupt the image, almost hurt my eyes and don't replicate the look of any old display device I've ever seen. Same with "PAL" filter - they don't look like my old PAL TV at all, they are more like the caricatures of it, exaggerated carcatures. I've never had a Commodore/Amiga monitor I admit, but most of the monitors on Amigas I've seen on youtube don't seem to have these ugly lines at all. And I've witnessed my friends playing Playstations many times (I did never had them myself and when I say Playstations I mean PS1) - again - very light scanlines on more modern big 100 Hz CRTs, no scanlines on 50 Hz old smaller CRTs. So why do some gamers seem obsessed with them so much?
What bugs me is through the opposite question - why is WinUAE output so sharp even without filters in 320x256 games, yet Steem and Dosbox produce such a blocky picture? This is even when I run them in native or near-native resolutions. And, please, no "PC/Atari ST suckz balls that's why" answers. The resolutions are almost identical (and I've tried some Amiga games in WinUAE in NTSC mode too which is 320x200 = same as VGA in 256 color mode or low-res EGA) yet the WinUAE output looks great on my LCD even through it is a 20 inch widescreen! How is this possible?
Last edited by m1omg on Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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m1omg
Groupie in Training
Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 64
Location: Slovakia
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Also, strangely, CGA and EGA games look nicely sharp and crisp in Dosbox, it is the VGA games like Lemmings that look like blurry POS compared to their Amiga counterparts. On our old family 386 with a 14 or 15 inch, I don't exactly remember the size, it was the exact opposite - EGA and CGA games were visibly pixellated while the VGA ones like Prince of Persia 2 looked smooth. |
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Wavy Gravy
Groupie in Training
Joined: 10 Aug 2008
Age: 40
Posts: 98
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| My first Amiga was an Amiga 1000 with 1081 monitor. There were scan lines on that. But I do agree, WinUAE does look different to a real CRT with scan lines. |
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MIK UK
Amiga Enthusiast
Joined: 21 Aug 2011
Age: 42
Posts: 564
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:16 am Post subject: |
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All CRT's have scan lines. For best results RGB will show the true picture and any large area of the same colour will show them up more. Just get a little closer to the screen and you will see them.
14" TV's were regarded a 'the' perfect size for the clearest picture back in the day because the scan line would be all but lost to the eye almost. That's why a lot of the first monitors were 14".
About the best I have seen emulation wise with scan lines is the MegaDrive emu Gens. It's still not right but it does a good job distorting the gfx enough.
anyone who claims scan lines rule when it comes to emulation are over reacting. You can not beat having the real machine on a real CRT and I live by this rule all the time. My woman is not happy with all the stuff I have, but it keeps me quite. 
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A1200T, Apollo 1260, 32MB RAM, 3.1 ROMS, 4GB HD, Z4 Board, Picasso II, IOBlix (Serial/Parallel), Squirrel SCSI, 2X CD, IDE 100MB Zip Drive, OS - DOpus Magellan II. Plus an A500+ Yum. |
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m1omg
Groupie in Training
Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 64
Location: Slovakia
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, it depends on which scanlines do you mean. I've never seen the "only every second line filled" type of scanline that exists in emulators on any display device. If you mean barely visible lines thinner than a single pixel that's another matter. |
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Kodoichi
Amiga Junkie
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 302
Location: KICK IT TO EM
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Scanlines |
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| m1omg wrote: | | It is just me, or are scanlines not emulating an old monitor/TV at all? They are supposed to emulate "old monitors and TVs". The thing is - I've never seen scalines on any actual old video device other than an old arcade Outrun monitor in Turkey. |
You are absolutely right.
Even if old CRTs apparently had scanlines, I never noticed them and they surely don't contribute to an authentic game feeling. They're absolutely not natural and hurt the eyes more than they help.
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Rekrul
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Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 164
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| m1omg wrote: | | Well, it depends on which scanlines do you mean. I've never seen the "only every second line filled" type of scanline that exists in emulators on any display device. If you mean barely visible lines thinner than a single pixel that's another matter. |
You've just described exactly the reason why you don't remember seeing anything like the emulator scanlines on any previous display device.
VGA monitors (at least those made in the last 10 years or so) don't have scanlines, except in a few obscure modes, so it doesn't matter how closely you look, you won't see them.
However, CRT TVs and Amiga monitors like the 1080/1084 did have scanlines. But since most people don't want dark, horizontal lines running through their picture, the manufacturers did their best to make the scanlines as invisible as possible. They're actually a side effect of how the tubes drew the image. You weren't supposed to see them, it's just that there was nothing that they could do to eliminate them completely.
There's no way to create artificial scanlines in an emulator and have them be less than a single pixel high. Pixels are the smallest element a computer can draw and even at fairly high resolutions, they're a lot more noticeable than real scanlines. This can be mitigated somewhat if the program allows you to vary the darkness of the scan lines. Magic Engine, the PC Engine/Turbografx 16 emulator allows you to do this and you can get a good approximation of an old display by lightening the lines to make them blend in more.
As for why people would like this; Scanlines can have a mild anti-aliasing effect on graphics. They don't work miracles, but there can be a noticeable difference the display on an old TV and on a new LCD display. |
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